John Dollus Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 on a vfx forum some time ago, they went back to old threads to contact the original posters who felt the same way about their business. Over 20 years ago, I also felt there was a 5 year moratorium. It didn't take long to realize that's only valid if you choose to not evolve and adapt to the needs of the market. Vaudeville acts didn't all die when films emerged. The successful ones simply evolved. Anyone know where Chris Drake ended up? His website says 'unavailable' so I'm guessing he's moved on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Jaber Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 http://forums.cgarchitect.com/376-worried-future.html It's been 13 years since Drake was worried archviz will come to an end. I am sure he wasn't the first either. Immortal question, and no answer.. perhaps better for some and worse for others. well i believe the market now is overloaded with lots of artists and this is making our job much harder and competitive , and its leading us to a place were we are accepting less money than what we deserve just for the sake of making a living.. ? so all the passion u have and effort is being somehow wasted here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Designers can do 3D adequately for design dev. purposes but renderings with persuasive aesthetic qualities (composition, light balance, high quality shaders, effective entourage etc.) will always be in demand and it's something designers don't have the time to get good at.. it's because designers are not good liars and we are rather exceptional at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 well i believe the market now is overloaded with lots of artists and this is making our job much harder and competitive , and its leading us to a place were we are accepting less money than what we deserve just for the sake of making a living.. ? so all the passion u have and effort is being somehow wasted here and there. In a sense this is true, but not in the way you would expect. It feels to me that there is way more competition for the $5 rendering jobs than there are for the $5,000 jobs. It seems everyone is fighting over the cheapskate clients but ignoring the really good ones who pay well and give you creative freedom. Plus, there are niches that are virtually untouched that you can practically name your price. It's just that as an industry, we tend to focus on the glut of single family McMansion renderings or a-typical condos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajrohamdo Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 In a sense this is true, but not in the way you would expect. It feels to me that there is way more competition for the $5 rendering jobs than there are for the $5,000 jobs. It seems everyone is fighting over the cheapskate clients but ignoring the really good ones who pay well and give you creative freedom. Plus, there are niches that are virtually untouched that you can practically name your price. It's just that as an industry, we tend to focus on the glut of single family McMansion renderings or a-typical condos. Well, those $5 jobs and the people who do that kind of job shouldn't be a problem, simply because many of you guys, especially pros in this buisness, and even young upcomming 3d artists, and I am one of them, hope so, don't see yourselves in that kind of work. Someone who loves this job, who approaches to it with passion, simply doesn't find satisfaction in that. $5 artists do $5 rendering cause they lack the passion and love for it. It's an whole different market. Hope I'm not wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frog_a_lot Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 well i believe the market now is overloaded with lots of artists and this is making our job much harder and competitive , and its leading us to a place were we are accepting less money than what we deserve just for the sake of making a living.. ? so all the passion u have and effort is being somehow wasted here and there. No, the market is overloaded with people trying to do arch viz.. not artists. The same way that the photography market is overloaded with people with cameras but not photographers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajrohamdo Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 No, the market is overloaded with people trying to do arch viz.. not artists. The same way that the photography market is overloaded with people with cameras but not photographers So, the point is, 3d artists are tired of "3d artists"? Well some of those "artists" really try hard to learn and get to some higher level and, in my opinion, those should be respected. It's not a nice feeling when you, as someone who's working hard to become a pro, come here and see what people really think about a nonpro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frog_a_lot Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 So, the point is, 3d artists are tired of "3d artists"? Well some of those "artists" really try hard to learn and get to some higher level and, in my opinion, those should be respected. It's not a nice feeling when you, as someone who's working hard to become a pro, come here and see what people really think about a nonpro. As a "non-pro" or 'aspiring artist' do you call yourself a pro and/or sell your services? If you answered yes then I have no sympathy. Half the issue with the 3D industry is people delivering subpar work for cheap, it is bad for the industry. My comment was directed at the groups of people delivering dodgy cheap renders for people and calling themselves artists. We all started somewhere and we all have a way to go to be the best, I am not saying anything bad to people who are putting in hard work to become an artist. I am talking about the ones who are happy to produce sub par crap and call themselves artists. It is the same in photography.. look at how many people have cameras and take photos.. are all these people photographers? Woudl you pay them to photograph your wedding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajrohamdo Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 As a "non-pro" or 'aspiring artist' do you call yourself a pro and/or sell your services? If you answered yes then I have no sympathy. Half the issue with the 3D industry is people delivering subpar work for cheap, it is bad for the industry. My comment was directed at the groups of people delivering dodgy cheap renders for people and calling themselves artists. We all started somewhere and we all have a way to go to be the best, I am not saying anything bad to people who are putting in hard work to become an artist. I am talking about the ones who are happy to produce sub par crap and call themselves artists. It is the same in photography.. look at how many people have cameras and take photos.. are all these people photographers? Woudl you pay them to photograph your wedding? As a person who can make midrange images with a year of experience, I call myself "not-even-close-to-an-artist", and I see that as a right way, to be extremly self-critic. But in the other hand, I have to make some money for living and sell those renderings, and that's where your point and mine point are in conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 This is why it is usually advisable to have a side job while you first start freelancing. You can work retail/food/service/etc, just get some extra income to help take the pressure off of solely earning money on freelancing. Yes, your days might be long but getting into freelancing isn't an easy thing to do. The best case scenario is to get a few years experience under your belt working in-house somewhere, but that's not always feasible for people depending on where they live and their mobility to seek those types of jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajrohamdo Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Actually, I'm an architecture student, got enough money so it's not such a big issue. I'm really into archviz and I thought, I could easily charge the thing I love to do in my free time. So it's basically extra money. But, I'm getting into it seriously and tend to become a pro in let say 2 years so, dealing with the breaktrough to a high level is my concern now. That includes developing my own style, artistic-value and quality issues, learning, working, estimating the prices of my own work, struggling with the midrange status I'm at and so on. I guess every pro got to get through all of this and that is the main reason I'm here, to get some advices, to learn what to do/not to do in this business... Hope you guys understand that struggle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic H Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 what i don't like is dudes masquerading as pros when they are just dudes with an i7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heni30 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I can't believe how people think it's so easy to become an "artist" or a "pro". Yeah, I've done it for a year and I'm gonna work hard for 2 years and do it on the side and then I'll become a pro. Can you imagine someone saying, "Yeah, I really like jazz guitar so I'm gonna get serious and work hard for 3 years and then I'll be a pro." Try 10 years.....maybe. Gladwell says the magic number is 10,000 hrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Its the job postings calling for "Experts" with 1 to 2 years experience, that gets me. Its been 15 years already and I still call myself a noob. There is a heck of a lot more to this game than learning what settings to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajrohamdo Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 You all know what I meant by that. Not beeing in magazines, winning this award, that award... just doing it for living. I know very well that in 10 there will still be a lot to learn. There is no need for judging me really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic H Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 not judging you! just offering insight. i have been at it 13 years now and still have a lot to learn. patience can be rewarding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Not judging in any way either, this game is constantly changing, and not just in terms of software/hardware evolution but also in client expectations, personal development, personal and financial commitments, and so on. Its not a straight learning path either, if I learn this bit of software I'll be set. That probably accounts for 10% of the learning curve, the rest is down to long term experience. Its one thing being able to make beautiful pictures, its quite another running a successful business doing it (even working for someone else), which essentially what freelancing is, running a business. Me personally, I feel I have the artistic skills to produce the work, but fall way short in my business skills to take it to the next level of working for myself full time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryannelson Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I can't believe how people think it's so easy to become an "artist" or a "pro". Yeah, I've done it for a year and I'm gonna work hard for 2 years and do it on the side and then I'll become a pro. Can you imagine someone saying, "Yeah, I really like jazz guitar so I'm gonna get serious and work hard for 3 years and then I'll be a pro." Try 10 years.....maybe. Gladwell says the magic number is 10,000 hrs. Does bench time count? But really, you're right. 2-3 years experience is not a pro. Maybe it's not an amateur either, but certainly not a pro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderSK Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Try 10 years.....maybe. Gladwell says the magic number is 10,000 hrs. Try 10 years to get approval of forum ;- ) ? So people can print out their diploma and proudly tell their clients the forum approved them professional enough, so they can finally sell their services and display them on website ? Anyway, the Gladwell's 'Outliers' book based on random anecdotes and wild extrapolations and strangest conclusions following some predetermined false premise ("there is no inherent 'talent' ..") has been thouroughly debunked so many times by actual scientific research. Let's start with this one from Princeton: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/06/30/0956797614535810.abstract We found that deliberate practice explained 26% of the variance in performance for games, 21% for music, 18% for sports, 4% for education, and less than 1% for professions. We conclude that deliberate practice is important, but not as important as has been argued. There are people on this very forum, who have been here since age of dinosaurs, but did they needlessly reach any form of excellence ? Statistically, most of them, not at all. (which is what the original so-called study measured, a proficiency). The matter of fact is, practice makes much less difference than all the "hard-working" people believe. It's not how world works, it's simply excuse for unreachable ambition. The division on amateur and pro, in industry without formal organizations and education (like most professions, trades and crafts have), is simply business choice. Do you sell your services and make full-time living out of it ? Then you're professional, even if you suck, and installed 3dsMax yesterday. No one cares what random forum guys think of you. There are no formal standards to reach, therefore it's all irrelevant. Honestly the last few comments were borderline. Since when do others care so much what others think and call themselves ? Other people's lives and careers are no one else's business. The best people in the industry, they never even bothered to register on forum or consider part of any community or group. Some (like two very talented guys from Norway country...) can even sound very nihilist when commenting on the industry, and actively ignore it. To paraphrase one comic: "Cheap, low-skilled amateurs, are not responsible for your shitty lives". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryhirsch Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 '''' Half the issue with the 3D industry is people delivering subpar work for cheap, it is bad for the industry.'' the other issue is people delivering bad work and are cheaper then cheap. '' But in the other hand, I have to make some money for living and sell those renderings'' yes, but if you do so think about the local market and take a proper fee. Dont expect that people will clap and cheer because there is another low price competitor around. Thats is the real issue, a lot of people want to make a fast easy buck with 3D, then they learn that its is not that easy to get clients and there is a lot of competition already, so they lower the price again and again. Once a price is established then it is pretty hard to raise the fees. The last thing we need is more guys that take 100-200 $ per picture. Yes, you can do so and it is a free market but dont expect people here to be happy about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryhirsch Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 ''''and I thought, I could easily charge the thing I love to do in my free time. So it's basically extra money.'''' that's what I am talking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderSK Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 ''''and I thought, I could easily charge the thing I love to do in my free time. So it's basically extra money.'''' that's what I am talking about... I don't know what you're talking about, you didn't put forward any premise or argument. You can feel sorry for these people, I do. Either they're not enough business savvy and undersell their work as their only means of competition, or they're too under-skilled to compete for higher profit margins. But in the end, they don't affect anything in way all the hysterical prejudiced hypotheses do. I am surprised people have the energy to keep complaining about the same age-old issues ad infinitum. To use anecdote, there's in fact, quite a few people in my very city, who charge exactly, 100 times less than I do. It doesn't affect me at all. We don't compete for same clients, we don't share markets at all. It's not my issue to judge or educate them, or complain how they destroy my universe due to their very existence. It's my job to care about my career, quality of work I can offer, my studio and it's employees. But definitely not leading crusade against supposed issues of industry and archenemies representing it. Are Michelin star holding restaurants holding the same tantrums about local Falafel shacks on corner ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Are Michelin star holding restaurants holding the same tantrums about local Falafel shacks on corner ? I think I saw Thomas Keller flipping off Burger King once. It's my job to care about my career, quality of work I can offer, my studio and it's employees. But definitely not leading crusade against supposed issues of industry and archenemies representing it. Can me make this the oath of CGArchitect? In 13 pages of responses, this is the one that matters the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiff1000 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Not sure what all the fuss is about, people will charge whatever they need to make a living. If its not enough from their point of view, they will go out of business. If its not enough from your point of view, who cares. I'm a noob (18mths), came out of a design sales background and needed a change, and thought about it this way - what do I want to earn in a year, what are my overheads, and how many hours do I want to work a week - i.e what will be my hourly rate to make a good living. Taking this into account you can quote people with a profit so long as you can work out the time and costs for the job beforehand, and add your margin. Admittedlley, the 'working out beforehand' part of that will come with experience, but nobody goes into this having never done anything like it before, so you might get it slightly wrong in the beginning, but not way-wrong. Its not right to try and compare a $100 image with a $1000 image, value is in the cost of production, not the image itself. In a world market, production costs from a self employed freelancer in India will be very different to a big studio in London. A client might ask both for a quote for the same job, and they will quote differently, and will likely deliver different quality due to different resources. Fact of life. If either one of them delivers crap, they don't get another job from that client. 'How much to charge' is relative to the individual, in answer to the original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heni30 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) There are people on this very forum, who have been here since age of dinosaurs, but did they needlessly reach any form of excellence ? Statistically, most of them, not at all. (which is what the original so-called study measured, a proficiency). The matter of fact is, practice makes much less difference than all the "hard-working" people believe. It's not how world works, it's simply excuse for unreachable ambition. I really couldn't care less about opinions and debunkings. I didn't say the 10k hrs theory was true; I said that's what Gladwell said. And in my personal experience and observations that is in the ball park. I like G. because he presents provocative thoughts that can serve as a launching pad/catalyst for your own thoughts and ideas, not because he presents solid irrefutable theories. I was using "pro" in the proficiency level sense, not in the employment status sense. Like a tennis pro; someone with a upper tier level of experience and skill sets. About hard work - I don't think it guarantees excellence but I really believe that excellence cannot be achieved without it. Raw talent will only get you so far. Of course I'm talking about constructive hard work, not mindless rote work. Having a strategy, analyzing, having and adjusting goals as needed, - in a word, conscious work - work you are learning from. There's nothing wrong with doing work on a casual level but there's so much more if you're willing to put the effort in. Even sheer talent can improve. It's funny that you talk about hard work like that when you might be one of the hardest working people on this forum with all the research you do on Vray, tech gear, the rendering profession, etc. Edited February 15, 2015 by heni30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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