philippelamoureux Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Just read this thread, crazy business! Anyhow, how much do you all think images like this would go for in Los Angeles? Thanks in advance! Are you Ri3dviz from unreal engine forums? (I'm heartlessphil on ue4). Are you still experiencing with ue4? The exterior shot looks good. If it was a personal project I'd add some wear and dirt on the house and street to make it blend better but I really like how it fits with the background. Have you taken a picture of the environment yourself to make it fit with the rendered portion? Tell us how much you charged for these instead :-P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 (edited) Are you Ri3dviz from unreal engine forums? (I'm heartlessphil on ue4). Are you still experiencing with ue4? The exterior shot looks good. If it was a personal project I'd add some wear and dirt on the house and street to make it blend better but I really like how it fits with the background. Have you taken a picture of the environment yourself to make it fit with the rendered portion? Tell us how much you charged for these instead :-P C'est moi. They were for a friend so no charge, that's why I asked. The background photo was provided by them. They took a picture from roughly the same angle as the rendering then I adjusted in Photoshop. Not sure I will continue with UE4, I'll try the 4.11 release but I find it too difficult to use for production work. Edited March 25, 2016 by innerdream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nielskretschmann Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 I usually dont work on fixed rates per image but mostly for my daily rate of 600€. That keeps pricing and price-negotiations very simple and you can be spared a lot of desperation when halfway through a project the client suddenly decides that he would rather have a night view in wintertime from the backside of the building rather than the mid day springtime summer view of the front that you agreed upon initially. With my daily rate the typical image would be around 1500€ for a single view or about 900€ if there are multiple shots of one object. To show what that actually means, i give some recent examples of images and their costs. all images where done from scratch including all modelling and might have taken about 2 preview images sent to the client to get to the final result. Universität köln - 2 images for 1500,-€ total http://www.roomservice3d.com/files/roomservice_visualisierung_01.jpg http://www.roomservice3d.com/files/roomservice_visualisierung_02.jpg Pergoen - 2 images for 1500,-€ total http://www.roomservice3d.com/files/roomservice_visualisierung_03.jpg http://www.roomservice3d.com/files/roomservice_visualisierung_04.jpg tubingen - 1 image for 1200,-€ http://www.roomservice3d.com/files/roomservice_visualisierung_05.jpg luxemburg - 1 image for 1800,-€ http://www.roomservice3d.com/files/roomservice_visualisierung_06.jpg niels - roomservice3d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heni30 Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) The only one that seems low to me is the hi rise. I think the big boys would charge like $4000 - maybe with cars and a little more tweaking (A large studio has to take into account overhead). So in your case the building is fine so maybe you could charge $2500 to $3000; especially because it's a large project with a big budget. A daily rate doesn't hold for an office building that's say a simple box that's easy to do but has a large budget and has much more value for the client. Edited July 3, 2016 by heni30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alejandrofernandez Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Im shocked with the prices I see here. For an image like this how much would you charge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philippelamoureux Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 We cannot put a price on a picture just like that. How much time you had to do it, who was your client, etc... Charge according to who is asking you to do the job. Not a flat fee for everybody, sounds meh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryhirsch Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I would be careful with the ''hey, the budget is big so I deserve more'' ...why exactly do you feel that you deserve more- if the job is not more difficult? Just because you feel it is fair? The big budget is for construction and engineers. '''my daily rate of 600€''' as I a client I would walk away, a daily rate sounds unflexible. Even engineers from Arup do not charge 600 bucks per day mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philippelamoureux Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 If we all use the lowest common denominator to price, this industry is dead. I'm not saying to overcharge like crazy but it's just natural to try to get more when it's possible. I don't like daily rate either, what can be done in a 600 euros day? no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryhirsch Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Try to get more is fine and normal. I wouldnt ask the client about the project budget etc. They know what one is up to then. In some countries architects receive a fixed percentage of the project budget. From that they have to pay all the engineers and consultants. If the Archviz industry comes up with a bar/chamber/education system then one could argue that the ''Archviz-consultant'' deserves a fixed percentage of the architects percentage or a fixed percentage of the project budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philippelamoureux Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 No, of course I would never ask a client what's his budget... but I would guess it looking at what is the project. I wasn't necessarily talking about the ''marketing'' budget but the whole budget. Is it for a 200 000$ house or a multi-million dollar estate. If it's the latter, chances are I'm going to charge more, just in case, it's accepted :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heni30 Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) I would be careful with the ''hey, the budget is big so I deserve more'' ...why exactly do you feel that you deserve more- if the job is not more difficult? Just because you feel it is fair? The big budget is for construction and engineers. There's an art fair and a woman walks up to a watercolorist's booth and is scoffing at the work's high prices. She points to a piece consisting of simple abstract washes and asks "C'mon, how long did it take you to do that?" The artist answers "Oh, about 2 hours and 25......................years" he replies. It's not about the difficulty nor about how long it takes. It's about the expertise. I'm sure the Arup engineer charges more than a civil engineer figuring out the column spacing on a rectangular warehouse. The price for doing a new Manhattan Trump tower that is a simple brass-mullioned box is going to be very different than the price for a very detailed developer "Spanish-style" house even though the amount of hours is the same for both. Edited July 6, 2016 by heni30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Flat fees are fine as long as you adjust them based on the needs of the image. For example the provided image seems pretty easy if the initial direction was to just fill a space with Evermotion assets. However, what if you don't have those assets? Are you just going to eat the cost of purchasing them? What if the direction was to fill the space with brand specific assets. Are you to eat the cost of modeling those yourself? It's no different than building a home. All builders have a base rate for the home. If you want extras and upgrades, then you pay a bit more. Your rendering needs to have a base rate, then tack on the extras. Hell, you can't even go to McDonald's and get an extra slice of cheese and not be charged for a piddly slice of processed "cheese". So why should renderings have to absorb all of the extra add-ons requested? Be transparent with the client about these so they know exactly why you may be charging more. Don't just tell them an end number and expect them to get it. Same thing along the lines of the value of the rendering to the client. If this office space is just to get approval from a city board, then it has value but no where near as much as if this rendering was being used to woo Apple into purchasing your office space. Yet as the value increases so must the quality. You can't charge a prime rate and still deliver your sub-prime quality. You don't always deal with architects, so you can't assume that. If you are dealing with the land developer, then you are dealing with the source of the money. There is also nothing wrong with asking about the budget they have for renderings. I would also advise against asking for the overall budget though, besides that is usually public information that you can look up in a press release. By asking what they have bookmarked for renderings, you can help shape your deliverable and their expectations. Also, if the architect is smart they have written on an add services for renderings and the rendering budget is outside of the overall project budget. Paying for renderings from the overall budget is a excellent way to lose money as a firm. The solution to many of the issues in this industry lie within moving the typical conversation away from: Client: I need a rendering. You: That will be (insert random number). There needs to be much more of a dialog going on than that, but it doesn't usually happen. Being transparent with the client gets them used to your process and gets you used to their process. Only good can come from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philippelamoureux Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 A client (I already knew him) once told me... ''charge a good price, if you charge too low my colleagues will think they can always get cheap renderings in the future.'' That's what I did... annnnnnnd didn't get the next job. But my integrity is safe!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryhirsch Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 '''It's no different than building a home. All builders have a base rate for the home. If you want extras and upgrades, then you pay a bit more.''''...that is my point. That is a solid reason. The clients wants extras. We hire archiviz sometimes, of course we discuss the price for the rendering. If the archiviz wants more money... because we want certain extras or the building design is ''tricky'', then we pay them happily more. But we do not pay more just because the budget is high. If NASA ask you for a simple rendering of a rocket then you can not say, hey the rocket cost 200 million, so I charge them 1 Million for the rendering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philippelamoureux Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) I have the right to overcharge Nasa if I want tho, you know, because I know there is money there. Nasa can say **** off if they want. That doesn't mean I should not try at first! Every man for itself in this economy lol. Edited July 7, 2016 by philippelamoureux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 But we do not pay more just because the budget is high. If NASA ask you for a simple rendering of a rocket then you can not say, hey the rocket cost 200 million, so I charge them 1 Million for the rendering. That example is a little on the extreme side, but you have a point. However, the counter point is that if they are willing to spend 200 million on a rocket, then they can reasonably be expected to pay a fair price for a rendering and not expect a freebie or only say they have 10 bucks to spare. Though in my experience, high budget jobs tend to have the trickier rendering needs because the designs can be more in-depth and in the case of residential high budgets, the potential buyers can be a bit more demanding of things. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/23/realestate/selling-park-avenue-condos-at-250000-a-minute.html If you don't have a reputation or have a top portfolio, then you can't even think of charging more. There are only a very few in this industry that can actually command a price. I guess I should clarify by saying that if you are going to ask for more, you need to ask for a fair price still. If the client wants to pay you $500 for a render, but you ask for $750. You show them that the extra $250 is worth it in the quality and service you provide, then you have a chance at getting a higher rate. But if you are just an asshat and ask for $50,000, then you can expect to never hear from them again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderSK Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I agree with points of Scott and Harry, as much as the idea of percentage based fee sounds lucrative, it's off :- ) But there are situations, where overall budget should come into negotiation terms. I work for small architects, and also very large financial groups with real-estate department. And it was the latter when one company simply said they have finite budget for visualization. They just decided on arbitrary number and that was it. I then simply asked what was the overall budget (I didn't ask for number, this is rhetorical question) for 'marketing' (not building costs ! ) to explain how the value of visualization looks compared to some off-highway megaboard. The visualization is building stone on which all the other collateral will be build upon, so it would be absurd if the overall percentage for imagery was miniscule compared to some rather useless ads. They were reasonable, and we agreed on fair price afterwards. It is always worth explaining the value the imagery will bring, some clients don't yet have experience and simply just try to low-ball it as necessary corporate ride. There were times where I would reply in snarky tone about "reputation" (some clients use architect's name as negotiating factor for under-paying) not paying for my mortgage, but I had since elevated the negotiation to more diplomatic, fact-based discourse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 in the same vain, we have had some projects where the "marketing" fees were way more than the "architectural" fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philippelamoureux Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 ''overcharging'' or asking more is not something you do automatically but you know, sometimes the client is in a hurry, his deadlines are so tight, you know it's a big project, they freaking need it asap, you know they're kind of client who like to work locally, or meet the renderguy in person.... thennnnn it's the opportunity to strike and ask more than what you would normally do!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lediankondi1 Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 I can get pretty close to same results with UE4 in the same amount of time and can give the client the real time app so he can HighResScreenshot his unlimited number of renders from all angles if he needs an image. Would do it for 1000-1500 euros, yet I am struggling to find clients. Feel free to contact me if you guys know clients interested in real time and want to be the middleman (or whatever we can work out). P.S - no disrespect on your work, I like it. Hi Philip! I think you forget thae factor that in order for the client to open your app in 3k and have the same quality as youre having he need the same rig as you have. So.. without disrespect... think about it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philippelamoureux Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Hi Philip! I think you forget thae factor that in order for the client to open your app in 3k and have the same quality as youre having he need the same rig as you have. So.. without disrespect... think about it! Not only that but who said the client have the knowledge or the time to open an unreal project, take screenshots and edit them in photoshop? Filip is also shooting himself in the foot because he won't make much money if he just sell the model instead of selling the renders. If it's such an easy task to print screen then you don't brag about it, you just do it and sell your easy-made images :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twalsh Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 new comer to the forum and the business. i'm a woodworker toying with modeling and renderings...better on the knees. i'll cut to the chase and post some images of a real case scenario to get some feedback on what to charge here in nyc. everyone here is out of my league so please be realistic in what you think these images are worth. having professionals gauge where my work sits will be invaluable. Thanks in advance. client: small studio furniture maker / interior re-modeler. wants bang for the buck (who doesn't) project: i got handed a rough floor plan for a kitchen remodel and an "inspiration" pic. what i am selling: i reworked/redesigned parts of the kitchen layout and millwork for better use...mostly modeled all cabinetry..imported appliances. created and/or tweaked all materials to match "inspiration" finishes...rendered i put in 16hrs for three images (don't laugh), not including the time when the computer was doing its thing (i dont think its right to charge for that) i'm using sketchup pro and vray note: image resolution provided to client was 1920 x 1080 tx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philippelamoureux Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Nice images. I expected much worse haha! I'd say minimum 500$ per image maybe? Sounds like you had to be the designer and the renderer on this project! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malksaint Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 (edited) Hello guys, I need your advice. I recently found a freelance work which is basically compositing LED light products onto stock images. I don't have any prior professional experience, only personal projects and school projects, so I was asked how much do I want per one image. I took few test images to work out the pipeline. The process of work is something like that: 1) removing existing lights from photos 2) recreating a scene in 3Ds Max partially (mostly simple surfaces to catch light and shadows), aligning perspective 3) using provided LED models to insert them into scenes and render them out in passes using Vray 4) after approval, composite all passes in PS fixing edges and such So this whole thing takes me around 8-10 hours per image, but I think with time I can shorten it to 6-8 hours of work per image. And when asked how much, I thought it should be something like $15/hr of my work, so I started with 75 per image. And on that we agreed. Considering my state taxation, it would be something around 67 per image for at least 6 hours of work. What do you think, is this fair enough for the work I do and the price I agreed for? Considering that I need experience and my resume currently has none of 3D work experience? Or I should consider changing rates later? Thanks in advance. Edited July 30, 2016 by malksaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Berntsen Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Isn't $15 pretty low? I'd think more like $60-70 per hour for a freelancer, but I have to say that I'm not operating in the American market, so maybe someone else can give a better indication. Just wanted to give my two cents anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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